Hunter Biden’s Ukraine gas firm pressed Obama administration to end corruption allegations, memos sh

Discussion in 'General Politics' started by speedkilz88, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. speedkilz88

    speedkilz88 Well-Known Member

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    Hunter Biden’s Ukraine gas firm pressed Obama administration to end corruption allegations, memos show


    Hunter Biden and his Ukrainian gas firm colleagues had multiple contacts with the Obama State Department during the 2016 election cycle, including one just a month before Vice President Joe Biden forced Ukraine to fire the prosecutor investigating his son’s company for corruption, newly released memos show.

    During that February 2016 contact, a U.S. representative for Burisma Holdings sought a meeting with Undersecretary of State Catherine A. Novelli to discuss ending the corruption allegations against the Ukrainian firm where Hunter Biden worked as a board member, according to memos obtained under a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. (I filed that suit this summer with the help of the public interest law firm the Southeastern Legal Foundation.)

    Just three weeks before Burisma’s overture to State, Ukrainian authorities raided the home of the oligarch who owned the gas firm and employed Hunter Biden, a signal the long-running corruption probe was escalating in the middle of the U.S. presidential election.

    Hunter Biden’s name, in fact, was specifically invoked by the Burisma representative as a reason the State Department should help, according to a series of email exchanges among U.S. officials trying to arrange the meeting. The subject line for the email exchanges read simply “Burisma.”

    “Per our conversation, Karen Tramontano of Blue Star Strategies requested a meeting to discuss with U/S Novelli USG remarks alleging Burisma (Ukrainian energy company) of corruption,” a Feb. 24, 2016, email between State officials read. “She noted that two high profile U.S. citizens are affiliated with the company (including Hunter Biden as a board member).

    “Tramontano would like to talk with U/S Novelli about getting a better understanding of how the U.S. came to the determination that the company is corrupt,” the email added. “According to Tramontano there is no evidence of corruption, has been no hearing or process, and evidence to the contrary has not been considered.”

    At the time, Novelli was the most senior official overseeing international energy issues for State. The undersecretary position, of which there are several, is the third-highest-ranking job at State, behind the secretary and deputy secretary. And Tramontano was a lawyer working for Blue Star Strategies, a Washington firm that was hired by Burisma to help end a long-running corruption investigation against the gas firm in Ukraine.

    Tramontano and another Blue Star official, Sally Painter, both alumni of Bill Clinton’s administration, worked with New York-based criminal defense attorney John Buretta to settle the Ukraine cases in late 2016 and 2017. I wrote about their efforts previously here.

    Burisma Holdings records obtained by Ukrainian prosecutors state the gas firm made a $60,000 payment to Blue Star in November 2015.

    The emails show Tramontano was scheduled to meet Novelli on March 1, 2016, and that State Department officials were scrambling to get answers ahead of time from the U.S. embassy in Kiev.

    The records don’t show whether the meeting actually took place. The FOIA lawsuit is ongoing and State officials are slated to produce additional records in the months ahead.

    But the records do indicate that Hunter Biden’s fellow American board member at Burisma, Devon Archer, secured a meeting on March 2, 2016 with Secretary of State John Kerry. In addition to serving on the Burisma board, Archer and Hunter Biden were partners at an American firm known as Rosemont Seneca.

    “Devon Archer coming to see S today at 3pm – need someone to meet/greet him at C Street,” an email from Kerry’s office manager reads. “S” is a shorthand frequently used in State emails to describe the Secretary of State. The memos don’t state the reason for the meeting.

    Tramontano, a lawyer for Hunter Biden, Archer and Joe Biden’s campaign did not return messages seeking comment on Monday.

    In an interview with ABC News last month, Hunter Biden said he believed he had done “nothing wrong at all” while working with Burisma but “was it poor judgment to be in the middle of something that is…a swamp in — in — in many ways? Yeah.”

    Whatever the subject of the Archer-Kerry meeting, its existence is certain to spark interest. That’s because Secretary Kerry’s stepson, Christopher Heinz, had been a business partner with both Archer and Hunter Biden at the Rosemont Seneca investment firm in the United States.

    Heinz, however, chose not to participate in the Burisma dealings. In fact, he wrote an email to his stepfather’s top aides in May 2014, pointedly distancing himself from the decision by Hunter Biden and Devon Archer to join Burisma’s board.

    Heinz’s spokesman recently told The Washington Post that Heinz ended his relationship with Archer and Hunter Biden partly over the Burisma matter. “The lack of judgment in this matter was a major catalyst for Mr. Heinz ending his business relationships with Mr. Archer and Mr. Biden,” Heinz spokesman Chris Bastardi told the newspaper

    A person who assisted Blue Star and Buretta in settling the Burisma matters in Ukraine told me in an interview that the late February 2016 overture to State was prompted by a dramatic series of events in Ukraine that included when that country’s top prosecutor escalated a two-year probe into Burisma and its founder, the oligarch Mykola Zlochevsky.

    Zlochevsky’s gas firm hired Hunter Biden and Archer as board members for Burisma Holdings in spring 2014, around the time that British officials opened corruption investigations into Zlochevsky’s gas firm for actions dating to 2010 before Hunter Biden and Archer joined the firm. Ukraine officials opened their own corruption probe in August 2014.

    A firm called Rosemont Seneca Bohai began receiving monthly payments totaling more than $166,000 from Burisma Holdings in May 2014, bank records show. The records show Devon Archer was listed as a custodian for the Rosemont Seneca Bohai firm and that Hunter Biden received payments from it. You can read those bank records here.

    In September 2015, then-U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt gave a speech imploring Ukrainian prosecutors to do more to bring Zlochevsky to justice, according to published reports at the time.

    By early 2016 the Ukrainian investigation had advanced enough that then-Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin authorized a court-ordered seizure of Zlochevsky’s home and other valuables, including a luxury car. That seizure occurred on Feb. 2, 2016, according to published reports in Ukraine.

    The same day that the Zlochevsky seizure was announced in Ukraine, Hunter Biden used his Twitter account to start following Deputy Secretary of State Tony Blinken, a longtime national security adviser to Vice President Joe Biden who was promoted to the No. 2 job at State under Secretary John Kerry.

    The Feb. 4, 2016 Twitter notification from Hunter Biden to Blinken was captured by State email servers and turned over to me as part of the FOIA release.

    Within a few weeks of Tramontano’s overture to Novelli and of Archer’s overture to Kerry, Vice President Joe Biden took a stunning action, one that has enveloped his 2020 campaign for president in controversy.

    By his own admission in a 2018 speech, Joe Biden used the threat of withholding $1 billion in U.S. aid to strong-arm Ukraine into firing Shokin, a prosecutor that he and his office knew was investigating Burisma.
     
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  2. speedkilz88

    speedkilz88 Well-Known Member

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    Biden has said he forced Shokin’s firing because he and Western allies believed the prosecutor wasn’t aggressive enough in fighting corruption.

    Shokin disputes that account, telling both me and ABC News that he was fired specifically because he would not stand down from investigating Burisma. In fact, Shokin alleges, he was making plans to interview Hunter Biden about his Burisma work and payments when he got the axe.

    Ukraine prosecutors have said they do not believe the Bidens did anything wrong under Ukraine law. But some of the country’s prosecutors made an effort in 2018 to get information about Burisma to the U.S. Justice Department because they believed American prosecutors might be interested in some activities under U.S. law. You can read about that effort here.

    Some experts and officials have been quoted in reports saying Joe Biden’s actions created the appearance of a conflict of interest, something all U.S. government officials are supposed to avoid. The questions about conflicts were previously raised in a 2015 article by the New York Times and the 2018 book Secret Empires by author Peter Schweizer.

    The new evidence of contacts between Burisma, Hunter Biden and Archer at State are certain to add a new layer of intrigue to the debate. Those contacts span back to at least spring 2015, the new memos show.

    On May 22, 2015, Hunter Biden emailed his father’s longtime trusted aide, Blinken, with the following message: “Have a few minutes next week to grab a cup of coffee? I know you are impossibly busy, but would like to get your advice on a couple of things, Best, Hunter.”

    Blinken responded the same day with an “absolutely” and added, “Look forward to seeing you.”

    The records indicate the two men were scheduled to meet the afternoon of May 27, 2015.

    The State Department records also indicate Hunter Biden met Blinken in person for lunch on July 22, 2015, when State officials gave the name of a person to meet to help him enter the building. “He has the VIP pin and can escort you upstairs for your lunch with Tony,” the email said.

    The emails don’t indicate whether the meeting had to do with Burisma or one of Hunter Biden’s other interests.

    But they clearly show that Hunter Biden, his business partner and Burisma’s legal team were able to secure contacts inside the State Department, including to one of his father’s most trusted aides, to Secretary Kerry and to the agency’s top energy official.

    The question now is: Did any of those contacts prompt further action or have anything to do with Joe Biden’s conduct in Ukraine in March 2016 when he forced Shokin’s firing?
     
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  3. cml750

    cml750 Well-Known Member

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    Clear evidence Biden did what they are claiming Trump did without evidence. Trump nuked them when he released the transcript. Biden should face justice for what he did. Solomon with yet another great journalistic endeavor. He is the new Woodward and Bernstein only he will NEVER receive the accolades they did and Watergate was nothing compared the what happened on Obama's watch.
     
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  4. superonyx

    superonyx Well-Known Member

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    Haha.....haha... watergate was nothing compared this this accusation...hahaha.


    thanks man that’s a good one.

    who cares about Hunter Biden? His old man has lost so much mental sharpness he won’t make it out of the democratic primary. He is like Obama. A moderate republican in policy.

    Do us progressives a favor and get him out early before a mistake is made.
     
  5. iceberg

    iceberg Well-Known Member

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    If they broke laws, I care.
     
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  6. superonyx

    superonyx Well-Known Member

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    I do to.
    Let's be real honest about this though. This Biden story broke around 2016. I can probably pull up some video showing progressive media outlets talking about it then. Conservatives didn't care about it then. Its just been resurrected now due to the Ukrainian phone call. Trump was trying to queue some dirt on the Bidens just in case Joe made it through the primary. He didn't expect a whistleblower to come forward. And of course the dems buy in and create their own political theater impeachment probe nonsense.

    I am an independent and support policy issues and not political theater. Anyone who denies the truth that is right in front of their face is being dishonest or have been brainwashed.

    The real loser in all of this is the American people. Once again we could be facing an election where the issues don't matter because political theater is front and center.

    The best outcome for all of us is Biden losing in the primary so our politicians can be forced to earn our votes with policy positions and not throw mud at each other for a year.
     
  7. iceberg

    iceberg Well-Known Member

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    maybe they didn't know how deep it went. or they did care but not much they could do about it at the time. now that trump is in office, maybe he was digging to see what was going on illegally by his predecessors. no i can't be sure of that from my seats, but by that same thought, you can't be sure he's simply digging up data on biden to hit him with.

    trump never seems to need data. he's a low brow playground bully a lot who just calls people names and making up stuff as he goes. i hear that about him all the time and from what i see, i agree. not a fan of it but that's who he is. for him to shift character to suddenly be doing homework and research for political gain would be new to his MO, wouldn't it?

    is that MO so the left has something to rally against or is it real?

    well the facts say trump doesn't do research and we can both illustrate his bragging / name calling seldom if ever is based on actual thought.

    the ukrainian phone call is number what, 5, in the long line of things the goes after trump for? they have a history of going crazy on an "event" trump needs to be removed form office for and they play it up and ignore all the past OOPS experiences. they literally, in my eyes, fling poo on the wall and if it doesn't stick, move on to the next fling. given the Justice Dept has cleared the phone call of any wrong doing, what is the fuss?

    well now the left says they don't need a illegal action by Trump to impeach him they can just do it. that begs the question then, why do they keep coming up with OH MY GOD LOOK AT THIS moments to highlight if they are simply not needed? trying to convince "we the people" is my best guess.

    so we have someone who has never shown a history of doing research suddenly doing this to go after someone he's just mock with low brow insults anyway. doesn't really fit if you remove emotions from this.

    to me - that is the problem. people see emotionally and in that light, find whatever they need to find in order to satisfy that emotion. i see the right do this a lot also.

    i won't get into the "anyone who denies the truth" because that is so vague anymore and people blur the reasons around the event to make THEIR side true and then scream to discredit the other side, their sources, and in the end, their motivations.

    TO ME, the left has gone bat-crap crazy with attack after attack on trump and whatever he does. to far too many on the left ANYTHING trump does is wrong, even if it's what they wanted pre-trump era. how "honest" is it to say 1 person is wrong 100% of the time? simply NOT possible. so if you want to get mad at peoples lack of honesty, simply start with the extremes on BOTH sides and watch them emotionally justify their rage and not listen to other thoughts or possibilities.

    TRUMP MOCKED THAT HANDICAPPED REPORTER!!!!

    um, trump made those same gestures for years when he was referencing anyone confused. yet that didn't matter. THIS TIME he was mocking the handicapped so you'd see him in the worst of light, as the left needs you to see him.

    overall i'm not a huge fan of trump. but he is the perfect answer to how crazy the left has gone trying to "socialize" this country. the only sane person i see running on the left so far is tulsi. she's pretty liberal but that doesn't mean she'll get her ideas and everything she wants. no president ever does.

    but she does have some roots in thought and common sense and seems to remove emotions out of it when she can. i hope she keeps gaining ground because i'd like to hear more about her, despite not agreeing on many major issues.

    your post here seems to be anti-trump, not a search for the truth. no idea if intended that way or if it even is - just saying how i read it because you're headed in a ORANGE MAN BAD direction. "whistleblowers" we're seeing are biased people coming out simply to say TRUMP DID IT and i've yet to see any of them willing to testify nor NOT have a history of liberal bias. the latest soldier i believe was cited several times for liberal bias in his actions. maybe he's telling the truth THIS TIME but it sure seems "kavanaugh" convenient for all these people to come out of nowhere doesn't it?

    if trump does something wrong or breaks the law, i'm down to follow up. if you hate him, i simply don't care. he won the election and there are times in our lives we just don't like the president or his methods/personality. it's far more dangerous to cater to emotions than to let him ride this out.
     
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  8. iceberg

    iceberg Well-Known Member

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    condensed version - if you're going to challenge trump and anyone who supports him, fine. lets challenge their credibility. but we can't trot out XYZ "whistleblowers" and the anti-trump "PRO TRUTH" (they say) people and NOT hold them to the same scrutiny or you're pretty much just "following orders" from the left.

    question all or be a part of the problem.
     
  9. cml750

    cml750 Well-Known Member

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    I am talking about the entire Russia / Ukraine / Trump narrative not Biden. The Russia bullcrap and Ukraine bullcrap are tied together. This all has been going on since before Trump was elected. Solomon has done more actual investigative journalism than any other reporter and has uncovered more corruption than any reporter out there. The mainstream media are nothing but propaganda pushers for the left and have basically ignored the largest scandal in the history of this great country. With Watergate, once Woodward and Bernstein uncovered the corruption then both parties joined together and would have impeached and convicted Nixon removing him from office had he not resigned. This current bullcrap has been a one sided witch hunt to overturn an election from day one with the willing help of the media..

    The Biden thing needs to be investigated thoroughly and he should face justice if he broke laws but what he did is nothing compared to what the three letter agencies in our government did to Trump.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  10. iceberg

    iceberg Well-Known Member

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    watergate was nixon just saying they *should* weaponize the gov to go after political opponents.

    this is pretty much what obama DID DO.
    DOJ inspector general found all four Carter Page FISA warrants were illegally obtained, Joe diGenova says

    we have text after text and have also caught brennen spying on congress.
    A Brief History of the CIA's Unpunished Spying on the Senate

    these are actions of using our government to work against the opposition.

    to continue the WATERGATE comparison and be "honest" about it - what part of our gov did Trump try, or successfully do - in order to weaponize our gov against political opponents? keep in mind his election was compared to WATERGATE *of which* would be an impossible comparison except to link trump to something negative. a tactic both sides love to engage in.
     
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  11. JoeKing

    JoeKing Well-Known Member

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    You are well on your way to rubbing every active member of this forum the wrong way just as you did me on our first conversation. Congrats. :rolleyes:

    But I already know your response... "conservatives can't handle the "truth" when it's presented."

    Your revisionist regurgitation of the way things are is crap and no matter how many times you rinse and repeat it, it still stinks to high heaven. You progressives will never learn, we see through you. We aren't buying what you are selling. Trump's Presidency is evidence of this and his re-election will just be confirmation that you progressives are losing the messaging war.
     
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  12. cml750

    cml750 Well-Known Member

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    Well I give @superonyx credit for one thing. He woke this slow board up. There has not been this much traffic since fuzzy left in shame. Since the other forum I frequent is ruled by a bunch of crazies with about a 4 to 1 margin, it is refreshing to have actual debate on here. It gets really old on the other forum reading post after post saying Trump conspired with Russia and Ukraine:rolleyes: (a strange dichotomy), obstructed justice, and should be impeached immediately.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  13. iceberg

    iceberg Well-Known Member

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    heh - i was glad to see him calm down and just talk issues. it can be a bit of an echo chamber in here if we don't have counterpoints to bounce ideas off of. but that doesn't mean we live or believe in said chamber; just no one around to intelligently talk over other points.

    but now i'm drifting back to being stereotyped and you know me; i'll ignore that quickly and simply move on. hoping we can attack issues, not each other. all around.
     
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  14. superonyx

    superonyx Well-Known Member

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    Coming from you I take that as a compliment.
    I don’t play sides. I realize all the drama and political theater is just nonsense orchestrated by the wealthy and powerful to keep us talking about the stuff that won’t change no matter who is in office. Fox News told me that Obama was coming for my guns. Obama and the Democrats has total control of the government for 2 years and did absolutely zero about guns. No assault weapons ban. No anything. Just like CNN told me Trump would take away abortion rights. Well that won’t happen either.

    These social issues are mostly noise. Follow the money and you will see what will happen with our government.

    I’ll post an interesting study that will illustrate this point big time.

    Back to your point. I’m not here to gain “likes”. I’m not hear to speak to a group of people that already agree with me. If I wanted to do that I would have joined another board. I knew what this place was before I came. This is why I came. Not to change people. But to share ideas and let us both dig below the surface and see if our position are truly are positions or a collection of talking points and spin that years of political misinformation from both sides has infected us to the point we can’t scrape all of that away.

    you will find I am very much against the corrupting influences of money in politics. I believe if the lobbyists, the corporate money and the Superpacs ect were all removed we would find out that democrats and republicans are not that different.

    I once volunteered for the Bob Dole campaign. I orchestrated rallies at local colleges ect. Grass roots level activity. I met him a few times. So I am not your normal left liberal. I voted last election for Jill Stein. A form of a protest vote because the lesser of 2 evils is still Evil.

    You don’t have to like me Joe. I’m ok with that. I treat people fair but I do like to challenge beliefs. If you are someone that is uncomfortable with that then you may get rubbed the wrong way.
     
  15. superonyx

    superonyx Well-Known Member

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    Plenty here to dissect. I will miss many of this out of time.

    I believe as most real progressives believe that the Russiagate nonsense was nothing more than the DNC and the Clintons not being able to accept that they lost. Now why could they not accept it? Not for the reasons most think. The reason they could not accept it is because if they accepted it then they would have to deal with the reasons for the loss. What are the reasons? Surely not $40k worth of facebook Memes. They lost because they failed to give voters a reason to vote for them. Why? Because they are as bought and paid for as the republican party is. I used to work for one of the largest telecommunication companies in the US. What we did was buy aka contribute to both political parties so that no matter who won we won. I sat through some high level executive meetings where this strategy was discussed. This is smart business. I don't blame the corporation for doing what fiduciary duty they have. I blame the system that allows this. So.... The DNC needs to keep the fundraising coming. If I remember I will post a video of the newest DNC fundraising chair admitting this. When Hillary lost real progressives who pay attention hoped the party would learn its lessen and actual give people a reason to vote for them and not just against someone else. It hasn't happened. The money interest is just too powerful at this point.

    Its ironic to hear democratic politicians tell us how Trump is a madman who can't be trusted with the nuke codes.....then turn around and vote to approve his massive increase to the military budget. The military budget was about 400B at the height of the Iraq war. Its now over 750B. We don't have an enemy who even owns an airplane and we are supposed to believe we need to double the military budget. disgusting really.

    The awful thing about this Russiagate nonsense is we have 7000 nuclear weapons. Russia has 7000 nuclear weapons. It takes about 14 to end life on earth. The last thing we need is another Red Scare. Putin may not be an angel but he has proven to be 100 times better than some of the other 73% of the dictators we support and provide aid to.

    Trump is right. We should want to be friends with Russia. We should also get rid of the sanctions and fix the relationship with North Korea. Of course Kim wants Nukes. He isnt stupid. He watched Saddam hang because he didnt have Nukes. He watched Qaddafi give up his weapons and then get a knife shoved through his rectum. The 50 years of sanctions have done nothing. Communism isnt spreading and the world is a better place with diplomacy and not war. No country wants to be our enemy. None of them. The ones that we portray as our enemy are the ones that stick up for themselves and won't bend completely over to the Empire.

    I believe its wrong for Trump to ask a foreign country to investigate his political opponent. Regardless of Biden being innocent or guilty (I believe he is corrupt). But I also don't believe its an impeachable offense. I don't believe the Establishment Democrats even think it is. They know impeachment does nothing. In fact if the Senate was controlled by the Democrats I doubt they would even be talking about impeachment. Its sort of like the Republicans talking about Healthcare or Abortions when they don't have the power to do anything about it. Then when they do have the power its silent.

    These guys are all playing us so we don't talk about the real issues affecting all of us. Massive levels of consumer debt. Most no longer have pensions. Huge economic insecurity. Almost 90M people uninsured or under insured. ect.

    They don't want us talking about these things because then we will demand action and the powerful oligarchs that have bought our government don't want that.
     
  16. iceberg

    iceberg Well-Known Member

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    good post - thank you for some viewpoints i didn't know you held. helps me better understand your other points and where you are coming from.

    given what i have read in the call transcripts, he said "look into it" - what does that mean in the overall context?

    i do NOT believe we're being told the truth about what happened in the Ukraine by the left. I'm not sure the right knows the full extent either. if trump went around process it's out of ignorance, not malice. but no. that wouldn't excuse him. but how do we find out the core of things like:

    Ukraine crisis: Ukraine searches for missing billions
    Ukraine PM says $37 billion went missing under Yanukovich
    $3 Billion for Ukraine Aid Would Go to Russia

    without digging? without asking? without holding people who *seemed* to be making bank out of this by doing nothing more than using their name for positions? ie - biden.

    it *is* a legitimate concern that trump may or may not have acted improperly on.

    Justice Department clears Trump of wrongdoing on Ukraine call

    the justice department cleared trump of wrongdoing. so what is the fuss? the left now says this is barr covering for his buddy but laughed up a storm when it was thought, by the right, that comey and others were covering for their buddy, hillary. when does reality become an illusion? only when your side is impacted?

    while *they* may be playing each other, we unfortunately do far too good a job at going along with it in search of a mythical "emotional validation" we'll never ultimately find.

    we've lost a lot of trust for each other and it's going to take years of patience to pull out of this and our gov needs to be overhauled and steps taken to stop this type of abuse from happening again. step 1 - term limits. step 2 - if you leave the gov FAR RICHER than you went in, better be able to explain why w/o deleting evidence along the way. we can't swing for the fences in the changes we need but need to stop, park emotion at the door, and think how do we fundamentally change into who we really want and need to be? not emotionally validate who we think we are today?

    very different roads.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  17. superonyx

    superonyx Well-Known Member

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    Here is a list of people that are elected officials and their own personal wealth increase while in office.
    This is disturbing.

    Changes in Net Worth of U.S. Senators and Representatives (Personal Gain Index) - Ballotpedia
     
  18. Kevinicus

    Kevinicus Well-Known Member

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    Why would there be "dirt?" It's funny how all the people wanting to attack Trump on this comment as if they assume there IS dirt. If there is "dirt," why wouldn't we want to find it? Leftist logic...smh.
     
  19. iceberg

    iceberg Well-Known Member

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    that's my point to a large degree. he said "could you look into that" and a whole lot of supposition is applied to make this what some people need it to be.. certainly it sounds like it could be bad. but what if trump is following up on billions of dollars that were traced back to biden and company in strange payments?

    is "look into it" warranted? hell is it even strong enough?

    on its own, the phrase is meaningless. yet here we are chasing trump once again because a few words got twisted up and the left *needs* him to look bad. of that i don't understand, trump can look bad enough on his own quite often. use those examples and stop making something out of what could be nothing.

    'the left' has done this so many times i pay them no regard or attention anymore. kavanaugh comes to mind. make up a lot of unverified crap and take it to public trial to hopefully get what you want.

    tired of that mentality.
     
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  20. iceberg

    iceberg Well-Known Member

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    and some of that does need to be looked into. it could well be they took advantage of speaking engagements or other "perks" that are fine that come with being a known figure. but hitting a certain threshold should draw a looksie to see how you got there and you damn well better be able to trace it back to honest means, or at least legal.
     

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